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Cheers · Dec 28, 2015 4:11 PM

Hey y'all

So I invested in a homozygous DP stallion at Thanksgiving.

http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=304981

As well as being homozygous DP, he's homozygous for sooty. He is a liver chestnut.

My question is about his babies. So I know they are all heterozygous DP from their dad. Some of them are super dark, like this filly.

http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=319811

She is also homozygous sooty and tests as a liver chestnut.

Some are much lighter, like this colt.

http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=320190

He is heterozygous sooty and tests simply as a chestnut.

So my question is: are liver chestnuts always homozygous DP (meaning that the mares who had liver foals from Red King are at least heterozygous for DP themselves) or can you get a liver chestnut from one DP and sooty?

Thanks for the help!

Abbey Road · Dec 28, 2015 4:33 PM

Two DP's on chestnut makes a "black" chestnut but the game still says liver. A quick search of every horse in the game with "liver" in the color name (with one exception, which is weird) shows that every single one of them is SstySsty or S+Ssty, so I think that's why your het baby doesn't say he is liver, he's missing a Ssty. So to answer your question, yes, a horse with one copy of DP and two Ssty/S+ will be liver.

Cheers · Dec 28, 2015 4:35 PM

Got it! Hmm...now I have to find the exception for myself!

Cheers · Dec 28, 2015 4:38 PM

And of course he's yours, Abbey! Thanks for the help, that was doing my head in as I work on culling this morning.

Abbey Road · Dec 28, 2015 4:39 PM

That filly is interestingly dark... makes me wonder if maybe your champagne mare might be carrying DP. I sorta think so... take a look at Galadhon's babies (he is homozygous DP champagne, so his champagne babies are hetero DP) to compare and see what you think.

http://hj2.huntandjump.com/adv_search.php?status=any&f_basic=none&f_adv=none&f_limit=25&stallion=1&mare=1&gelding=1&spayedmare=1&bty=1&lined=lined&foundation=1&sire=285444&dam=&brindle1=1&brindle2=1&wf1=1&wf2=1&wf3=1&wf4=1&wf5=1&wf6=1

SandycreekFarm · Dec 28, 2015 4:50 PM

I think that heterozygous sooty and homozygous DP will also make a liver chestnut. The effect of having three darkening genes is what does it.

This one from my HaJ1 account (where I have lots more DP), for instance.

http://www.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=3111913

Abbey Road · Dec 28, 2015 4:57 PM

Ah. That would explain why Versus says Liver but isn't SstySsty... he might be DP/DP, since both parents carry it. Might want to make a note, Sandy, he's yours. :)

hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=248143

Cheers · Dec 28, 2015 5:04 PM

Bollinger may be het DP. She's just about as dark as my Elf Steed who is by Galadhon. It's hard to tell because a lot of your other champagnes that are color tested there were dappled!

Abbey Road · Dec 28, 2015 5:05 PM

I know, but not all of them. I'd do the same pairing the next few seasons and see what you get. :)

Cheers · Dec 28, 2015 5:27 PM

Ok, moving her back into the DP pasture!

fj1482 · Jan 5, 2016 2:01 PM

Ok so now I have some newb DP questions. How do you know he's HOMO for DP? Do they have to be HOMO in order to show the DP? This is why my major is in biology because genetic's is never straight forward and it's different from species to species. Hand me a chicken and I can tell you all about it. Hand me a horse and I have no clue lol. It's all very challenging.

Cheers · Jan 5, 2016 2:13 PM

I know my stallion is homo for DP because I paid Ammit to put it on him when it was on sale at Thanksgiving....but some of the more experienced players might have been able to guess from how dark he is...

Cheers · Jan 5, 2016 4:50 PM

Oh, realized I didn't answer the rest of your question. DP is expressed in any horse with red pigmentation--which includes heterozygous creams like palominos and buckskins and gold champagnes. So where sooty/sooty+ makes coats darker by adding more black hairs (I think), DP makes the red hairs a darker red (sometimes so dark they are almost black). You can't test for DP, so you can only guess at its presence by color testing or eyeballing. Very dark horses without sooty are likely to be carrying DP, dark chestnuts carrying DP and 2 sootys test as "liver" chestnuts.

I know of at least one Cremello sire in this game that appears to pass DP on to his foals...I don't think even the most experienced player would have been able to eyeball him and know he carried DP, so there is very much a "luck of the draw" aspect to the gene.

Dark Chestnut and Dark Flaxen Chestnut HHs are most likely to give you identifiably liver chestnut foundation creates--because liver chestnuts require 3 darkening genes to be identified, and you know that those two HHs carry homozygous sooty.

Anyone more experienced, please correct anything I've said here that is incorrect!!!

fj1482 · Jan 5, 2016 5:17 PM

Ok........so I have this foal. She color tested as a buckskin but she is way darker then I expected but according to what your telling me it is because of the fact she has one Ssty gene? So, if I want to make any of my colors darker one easy way to do it would be to GM them and add Ssty gene.

Cheers · Jan 5, 2016 5:18 PM

Yes, sooty will make them darker. But if she only has one Ssty gene, I'd say she is way darker than I should expect and may also be carrying DP.

fj1482 · Jan 5, 2016 5:20 PM

Wouldn't DP be odd though considering the line she has?

Cheers · Jan 5, 2016 5:20 PM

Can you put up her link? I will take a look!

fj1482 · Jan 5, 2016 5:21 PM

Sorry I thought I put a link http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=337929

Cheers · Jan 5, 2016 5:26 PM

Ok, check out this mare. She's a gold champagne splash with no sooty, just like your foal's dad. Look how much lighter she is...I think your sire line carries DP!

http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=328596

Cheers · Jan 5, 2016 5:27 PM

Looks like it came through his mom, starlight starlight.

fj1482 · Jan 5, 2016 5:33 PM

OK, I see what you mean. Yes, they are darker then the one you posted. What would be a sure fire way to find out? I'm sure I can go looking and find a boy who is dark by this same sir and breed them together.

Cheers · Jan 5, 2016 5:37 PM

Only way to know absolutely for sure would be to get a liver chestnut baby out of that line. Other than that, he is presumed to be heterozygous DP. So, breed from either your buckskin of his sire to sooty chestnut mares...

fj1482 · Jan 5, 2016 5:43 PM

Ok now I'm lost. Breed WO2 A Formal Affair to a chestnut mare or breed WO3 Formal Latte to a chestnut stallion? Unfortunatly I was stupid when I first started and I dont have any of my original Foundations and the yumyum company ate them.

Cheers · Jan 5, 2016 6:03 PM

Sorry! Um, ok, so looking back...

You couldn't get a liver from Formal Affair because it requires 3 darkening genes, in this case sooty from the dam and sooty and DP from the sire. Affair doesn't have sooty to contribute, so you couldn't get a liver from his foals.

You could potentially get a liver chestnut foal from Latte. She has a copy of sooty and the presumed DP and she is heterozygous for bay and cream....but it would mean either some creative GMTing or patience to get a foal that carried all the right alleles--ee aa CC and SstySsty with DP....

Since you do own Formal Affair, you might eventually get a red based colt from him that appeared to carry the DP and maybe got sooty from its dam. That colt, if bred for it, could throw liver foals which could also confirm the DP in the line

But that's all a lot of work over many months and if you aren't specifically breeding for DP anyway, I would probably make a not on Affair and Latte's pages that they are presumed het DP and go on your merry way feeling a little lucky!

fj1482 · Jan 5, 2016 6:13 PM

lol I'll be keeping a close eye on his foals from now on that's for sure. I do have a DP line I'm working on so his foals could possibly help with that. I can also just use them to darken up some of my colors in my nexus line too to help show off the pattern more.

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