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Lethal foal?
  • I had 7 mares in my pasture, and I only got 6 foals. I figured out which mare and which stallion it was, but I didn't think they would be lethal... This is the mare image
    MG Sky Full Of Stars


    And this is the stallion image
    MG Pumpkin Spice
  • It was probably the Kit W2 and the W20 that did it. She has the W2 and he he is homozygous W20, along with having splash. W20 increases the white with kit genes, so it must have been high, then add splash into the mix and was probably too much white.
  • I wouldn't have figured any of that out using the chart I found on here from July 16, 2016. Nor from the the amount of White Factor indicated in each individual horse's genetic "breakdown."
  • I believe this is the updated version, at least it's the most recent that I have marked.
    http://hj2.huntandjump.com/forum/discussion/13709/lethal-kit-combinations-have-been-drasticly-updated#Item_3
  • Here is a quotation from the simplified color-coded lethality chart that Ammit posted at the time when Kit lethality was updated. Note, especially, what she says about the effect of splash and frame when combined with potentially lethal Kit mutations. (I found this by searching the announcements in HaJ1. I'm sure Ammit also posted it here, but I'm having trouble finding it.)

    What controls white factor?
    White factor is a numeric representation of the the sum total of all the little things that influence the amount of white of a horse. Foals inherit some of their white factor level from their parents and some from the genes they have. Mutations can also push white factor up. The more mutations on a foal the higher it's white factor. Beware of breeding risky crosses when splash and frame are also in the mix. They increase the over all white factor and your risk of a lethal foal.

    How can a cross be only sometimes lethal?
    First the game take the whole range of horses that would have survived but had life long health issues, foals that would have survived a few weeks but ultimately died, etc. and simplifies that down to lethal or not. Second is a genetic concept called penetrance. Genetics is not a simple on/off switch like is often taught in middle school. Some genes just put you at a higher risk. In real life some splash white horses are deaf, others are not and the percentage of deaf ones depends largely on which splash allele is present. But regardless the more white on the horse the more likley they are to be deaf. Same with our KIT mutations the riskier the allele and the more white on the horse the more likley something critical was hit this time.


    Remember white markings are broken horses.
    Most color genes on horses are mutations (anything outside of the wild horse bay look) and a mutation is a broken gene. That is really important to remember. Some breaks like bay becoming black are pretty trivial and don't do much. Some breaks are more problematic. Every white sock, star, pinto mark etc is a sign of something that is broken and the more white on a horse the more things that are broken. Pigment is vital for many bodily functions and a total lack of it is often lethal. The lethal gene system models this reality. The more you stack risky genes together the more at risk the health of the foal. This is true in real life and in game**.

    **Does that mean I am anti paint horse? Absolutely not! I love beautifully marked paints and pintos but I also believe that only irresponsible breeders breed two frame carrying horses together in real life..

    Remember adding splash, frame and high white factor parents to the mix greatly increases your risk of a lethal foal.
    De gustibus non disputandum. "There's no arguing about tastes."

    SandyCreek Farm: ID# 441
    also playing H&J1 as SandyCreek Acres: ID# 137592
  • And here's the link to that post here in HaJ2, made in January this year, not December, where I was looking for it.

    http://hj2.huntandjump.com/forum/discussion/13757/new-kit-lethality-and-kit-mutation-load-explained#Item_12
    De gustibus non disputandum. "There's no arguing about tastes."

    SandyCreek Farm: ID# 441
    also playing H&J1 as SandyCreek Acres: ID# 137592
  • No Splash or Frame columns in these two more updated charts? Or you just wouldn't add frame or splash to any risky combinations in these two charts? The math in the first one escapes me. I would love to know how to apply it to my horses but it's Greek to me.
  • I'm guessed that splash and frame add a random number from a selected amount, and that it's not always easy to guess how much white it will add to the horse. I don't breed risky combos if either horse has a high WF and/or has splash and frame on top of that. If It's a risky combo, the horses have either splash and/or frame, but their WF is none, light or minimal (depending on lethality), I'll try the cross.
    Producer of Volcanic Glass Drafts. Lapisobsidianus.
    Prices are almost always negotiable.
  • homozygous Frame,
    Homozygous Splash 2,
    Homozygous Splash 3
    And splash 2 with splash 3

    All remain lethal with the new Kit lethalities.

    However, what is new is that both Splash (all forms) and Frame contribute overall to white marking expression/gene breakage and therefore increase the lethality of Kit combinations. We have not been given specific numbers for these increased lethalities, just like we have not been given calculations to figure out what White Factor a foal might have given their parents' combinations.

    As a result, keeping Splash and Frame out of herds with risky Kit combinations or else accepting a certain amount of "normal wastage" is the only thing you can do.

    I just bred my Machiato pasture. The two stallions in that pasture are both Nanotech Primers, one with his W2 switched to W8. There are quite a few Nanotech mares in the pasture and almost all of the mares carry Splash. W2 is a risky gene at high White factor with several other Kit genes. Add in splash....and the occasional frame mare....I bred a 100 horse pasture and got 98 foals. For me, that is an acceptable rate of loss.

    If you want a heavy Splash herd, your best bet is to use stallions without any Kit patterns.

    If you want a herd with lots of W1 or W2 or one of the other riskier Kit patterns, you will want to eliminate all of the "White enhancing" genes and any risky kit patterns. So, get rid of all W20, splash, Frame, pretty much all Kit genes except Tobiano and roan....

    Otherwise, you really need to be willing to risk some lethal foals.

    Please note that like Ammit, I am perfectly happy with some "normal wastage" in pixel ponies but think it's abhorrent in this day and age to breed known lethal combinations in real life. I have similar feelings about the breeding practices in certain dog breeds...
  • @Seeking Serenity--Ammit made the two charts to clarify the updated programming for Kit mutation lethal crosses, which is complex enough without trying to chart in Splash and Frame as well. She warned us of the danger possible by adding those two genes to multiple Kit mutations in a breeding, but the exact computations involved in the genetic programming of the foal remain hidden from our eyes.
    De gustibus non disputandum. "There's no arguing about tastes."

    SandyCreek Farm: ID# 441
    also playing H&J1 as SandyCreek Acres: ID# 137592
  • Splash and frame do no apply to the chart and it would make no sense to add them to it. They increase your white factor which is on the chart. The White factor you will get from any given cross is partially random, and partially determined by things like having genes like splash and frame. Splash and frame give you more WF, and increase the danger of any given cross on the chart.

    For a rough guess of what the foal will be take the average of the parents WF and add 1 for frame and 1 for splash. Not that is just a rough guess but it will get you in the ball part.
  • Thanks, Ammit.
    De gustibus non disputandum. "There's no arguing about tastes."

    SandyCreek Farm: ID# 441
    also playing H&J1 as SandyCreek Acres: ID# 137592

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