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In this Discussion
- Ammit June 2017
- Appleboots July 2017
- best friend June 2017
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Kicked by my Mare, in hospital. What do I do? :'(
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Lacerated liver and a nice hood bruise on my high stomach. (Thankfully that's it) Stuck here through tomorrow.. need stuff to keep my mind off of everything..
Back story: I'm 27, had my gorgeous blood bay (w/chrome face & legs) for ten years in October. I had a connection with her the moment my butt touched that Western saddle on her back. I had to have her. She is sensitive and FAST and everything I ever wanted in a horse, except.. I've had 3 concussions, one resulting in a seizure, a broken ankle, a near broken thumb, and now two separate kicks. I am a good rider whom it usually takes a lot to unseat, but today, as I was swinging up into my English saddle (I may have tickled her elbow with my toe) she started crow hopping and as I bounced off her back, behind her, she squarely kicked me right in the gut. FML. My Mom wants me to get rid of her.. and I'm pissed because she should NOT have kicked me as I was landing from being thrown.. is this the final straw? Should it be? I'm so hurt and torn.. I love her, but that was unacceptable in my eyes. Just plain mean.Breeder of Quality Warmbloods and Show Horses
Lover of Brindles, Blacks, Buckskins, Blue Roan's, Bays, Grey's and SABLES! And addicted to Ice, Pearl and the color Purple.. :P
#28600 -
If she was crow hopping and bucking, I doubt she kicked you intentionally, sounds like that part was accidental. If your horse doesn't normally behave like that when you get on, that's a good indication that something is wrong and your horse was upset or in pain. Or maybe your horse got stung by a bee/horsefly and freaked out, especially because she's sensitive. When I was a kid, I used to lease a horse that freaked out and dumped me like that every time the bugs were bad and he just got too upset to handle them anymore. I don't remember my 13th birthday because he decided that bucking me off and giving me a concussion would be a great birthday present lol.
Have you had your saddle fit checked? If your saddle doesn't fit your horse right and it hurts her back or pinches her, that could definitely explain the extreme reaction when you got on her. There's a wide variety of English saddles out there and I'm not sure what kind you have, but many of them, particularly the close contact saddles (especially the french ones), are designed to fit TBs or TB type lighter WBs i.e. high, narrow withers and narrow tree. Based on your description, I'm guessing your horse is more of the QH type, and a lot of English saddles out there aren't made for horses with lower withers or a wide back. I know several people who have WBs that have more of the barrel type build with big shoulders and a low broad wither, and they've found that saddles with a hoop tree fit their type of horse better than the standard "A frame" type of tree you see on most english saddles. Here's a really useful post about hoop trees vs. standard trees if you haven't heard of hoop trees before.
http://saddlefitter.blogspot.com/2009/10/from-tree-up-hoop-vs-standard.html
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If you love her, checking saddle fit and having a vet check her for back pain, joint pain, hearing or sight changes all could help you identify a problem that may be fixable, or that you could at least compensate for in some way. Unfortunately, some horses aren't the right mix for some people. If you two aren't the right mix, it's better to call it quits before you get permanently hurt.Thanked by 1Coeur
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Get rid of her. There are a million NICE horses on the planet. Your mare is not nice. Nice horses' don't send you to the hospital over and over again.
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Holy crap Im so sorry she got you so bad! I hope you heal quickly.
I agree with if she was crow hopping and bucking it probably wasnt intentional. Obviously we werent there to see but that would be my first guess. She could have been spooked by you falling off behind her or it was just the right moment (wrong moment I guess lol) when her feet were flying.
I also agree that there might be an issue. (Like I said we dont know her, you, or anything of that nature so I'm just speculating from what I do know) It could be back pain. Joint pain. Saddle not fitting right. Maybe the type of bit is bothering her. She might just need an adjustment from a chiropractor they do wonders sometimes. If you have the money and do love her and dont want to get rid of her I would definitely look into those things. Like Cheers said (and she is a vet!) have a vet do a full look over on her. And of course she could just be an ass lol. Maybe once youve had her looked over go back to basics and do a bunch of groundwork with her. Build a different kind of "bond"
Is she outside most of the time or in a stall? If she spends most of her time in a stall switch it and let her be outside as much as possible. It could be a ton of built up energy. Maybe lunge her before rides (if you dont already) and maybe she'll get her kinks out that way.
Do you notice if shes more witchy when shes in heat? If so (and even if not) maybe looking into a supplement like mare magic (which is basically just dried raspberry leaves) will calm her down just a tad. It couldnt hurt to try after youve covered the vet and chiro part.
And again, as Cheers said once you cover all the bases that you can and are willing to and nothing is changing. Maybe it would be best to find her a different home. Sometimes no matter how much we love a horse we dont "click" personalities mash and horses pick up on things and definitely will take advantage if they see an opportunity. The most important thing is your safety and her safety. -
This mare has sent her to the hospital multiple times. These wasn't a freak one off.
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Yes, Ammit, I hear you. That doesn't mean that the blowups aren't being caused by pain or by fear due to loss of hearing or sight. It also doesn't mean they aren't caused by the mare having long term behavioral issues that may be unresolvable. I believe a full work up by a vet could be beneficial if one hasn't already been done, if there are the funds to both diagnose and treat whatever might be found and if KAM is still committed to making it work with her mare.
That said, KAM, I fully support you deciding that your relationship and trust with the mare is broken too far to be repaired. No one should ever be scared of their horse. Ammit is completely correct--there are way too many lovely, sound, sane horses out there that need homes for you to mess with one who has major issues and risk getting hurt again.
If you haven't already, may I suggest that you look up Denny Emerson on Facebook? He's an Olympic eventer in his 70s who now brings along young horses for eventing, dressage and endurance/competitive trail riding, he broke his back and came back. He has strong, no nonsense views on horsemanship and riding and he's one of the clearest advocates out there, I think, for both sides of the horse-human bond. If you're stuck in bed, it would be worth having a look. Tamarack Hill Farm is his FB page.Thanked by 1MoonAcre Stables -
Shes also had her for ten years. Anyone can fall off of any horse and get a few concussions whether the horse is a saint most of the time or the opposite. I'm not saying its acceptable at all. But I also don't think "get rid of the horse" is the first thing that should happen either. There could be so many things that come into play. If this horse was vicious she would have done much more damage over the last ten years. Not that what shes done isnt a lot of damage it is and I'm not excusing it. However I feel that if she wants to try and cares about this horse that she owes it to the horse and herself to cover all of her bases
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So sorry. It has been 6 years since my riding accident and it takes a lot for me to get in the saddle just to sit on my gelding. I got hurt by my mare when she bolted with me. I hit the ground over 25 miles an hour the only thing that saved my life that day is I went back into the house to get my helmet. Now my mare has never done it since but my confidence with any horse is damaged and most likely permanently because of my fear of falling again. I have 4 horses.
I am thankful that you weren't hurt worse.
I know from experience my gelding when my saddle did not fit him properly would crow hop and buck. He had his good days and bad days I finally had a full check up on him by my vet and had him watch while I rode for a few minutes and that is when he noticed my saddle was pinching his shoulders after a few minutes of riding. Took me a couple of years to find the right one and once I did he quit bucking and crow hopping with me.
I would have your vet just do a check up on him maybe even a chiro come and look at them as well. If that comes back all normal then you have to ask the question how much do you really want her. Could a refresher with a reputable trainer help?
Horses are meant for us to enjoy not wonder every time when we get on is she going to blow again. Only you can answer that question. There are other horses out there and If you decide to get another one if you have a trainer that helps you have them look at each horse that you think you might buy.
You are in my thoughts. -
Even the nicest horse on the planet can still send multiple people to the hospital even if it never deliberately misbehaves in its life. And that same wonderful horse can still do something dangerous and hurt you if it gets scared enough. This sport is dangerous by nature and there is no such thing as a perfectly safe horse. Riding horses is inherently dangerous and we try our best to minimize that danger, but it will never go away completely no matter what you do. Remember, you're sitting on top of a 1200 lb prey animal. Sometimes we forget that and expect horses to react to things the same way humans would. The only sort of horse that you can get on and 100% guarantee your safety every single time you ride is the kind that only goes when you put the quarter in. The reality is that you could get rid of this horse and buy a completely bombproof packer type and you could still end up in the hospital again. It would probably be less likely but still definitely possible.
Years ago, one of the girls at our barn was jumping her horse and leaned really far forward and jumped ahead, got jumped loose, fell off and hit her head, and couldn't ride for a month because she had a concussion. Her mom was riding the same horse while her daughter couldn't ride and she put her thumb over the horse's neck as it was jumping (huge no-no), horse's neck came up and back as it went over the jump, and the mom bent her thumb backwards so badly that she tore several tendons and ligaments and she needed multiple surgeries to repair the damage. If you were to judge that horse's safety based on how many riders it sent to the hospital, you'd say that the pony was really dangerous. In reality, that's clearly not the case.
That being said, we don't know this horse or what caused such an extreme reaction when she went to mount. And we don't know if the horse has made a habit of this sort of thing, and we don't know how her other accidents and injuries were caused. If the accidents were all caused by the horse misbehaving or deliberately trying to injure her, that's one thing and it could definitely mean that the horse has some sort of problem, maybe because something is physically wrong with the horse, or maybe because the horse really does have a behavioral issue. But if the other accidents really were accidents and were caused by things like rider error, horse tripping or stumbling etc, then that's something else entirely. We don't have enough information to know if this was just a one off freak accident or whether the horse is dangerous. If there is something wrong with the horse, then you should definitely not ride her until you can figure out what exactly is going on.
If you do decide to sell the horse, you need to be very careful and if the horse has some sort of behavioral issue it needs to be disclosed to any potential buyers. Otherwise, if the horse does the same thing to the new owner and they get hurt, you could be sued because you knew there was something wrong with the horse when you sold it and you failed to inform the new owner of that. Personally, if I decided that the horse was too dangerous to ride, I would retire her and not sell her, because even if you do disclose any potential issues to the new owner, they can still sue you. They might not win in that case, but it would still be a huge pain to go through.
If you decide to keep the horse, I would make sure that you have a vet look at her to rule out physical problems like Kissing Spine, and have the vet do a blood test to rule out things like EPM or Lyme disease. Lyme is a lot more common than most people realize, especially if you live in a part of the country where there are a lot of ticks around. -
I'm a little too loopy to read everything at the moment, but yes, she's been checked by a vet and I know her saddle fits her fine. It has never been an issue of her in pain. Startled maybe, but she is too quick to react to anything that "spooks" her. That is dangerous. I love her so much and am surprisingly, or stupidly, never scared of her, I just know these accidents happen when I'm least expecting them.
Damn I hurt this morning.
I love this community, thanks y'all for being around and for your input.Breeder of Quality Warmbloods and Show Horses
Lover of Brindles, Blacks, Buckskins, Blue Roan's, Bays, Grey's and SABLES! And addicted to Ice, Pearl and the color Purple.. :P
#28600 -
You could try desensitization training, but dangerous horses are just simply not worth it in my book. People make tons of excuses for horses they love but I think when you are messing with an animal as big as a horse you better pick a partner you can trust. At the end of a day it's just a horse. That pisses some people off to say but it's true. Your life and health are worth so much more. A good partner DOESN'T kick you in the gut because you slid off their butt. I've known countless horses you could do that on all day long and they would never flinch. Explosive personalities are just a bad combo with something as big as a horse.
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I'm not usually one to give up on an animal, but please do remember (as Ammit said) that your life and well-being is worth WAY more than any horse. I would find a horse that you can trust and feel comfortable on. Wishing you a quick recovery!
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This is just my opinion, since I have been in the medical field for 40 years. And also was raised and grew up with family breeding businesses. I have also ridden, bred and trained horses for 50 years. I have even had BLM mustangs (wild horses) come to me for training. And horses with behavioral problems for retraining. I always referred my clients to veterinarians first, to make sure it isn't a pain/medical the horse has. You have already done that. Speaking from a standpoint on both of these fields I have been in:
You have already had a vet look at her, so without actually being with your horse to observe her. She does not have a good temperament. Some do and some don't. Some can have the problems worked out, but usually not with a horse with a temperament yours seems to have. Out of the hundreds of horses I have trained from their birth, to older horses with problems, your horse is most likely one that cannot have her problems worked out. Plus, it can get very expensive with medical, vet and training bills.
With the injuries that you have had from this horse, it is not worth it to keep her. You could have long term medical issues later in life, with the injuries you have received from this horse so far. I know you love her, and its hard, but you need to sell her. Get a horse with a good temperament, that you can enjoy riding. Let the buyer know her history, but you need to sell her. -
There are tons of training videos/websites that could really help you out with your mare. Personally, I think this is an issue that requires retraining from the ground up. If your horse flips out when you are in the process of mounting, there is a definite hole in her training. The kick from behind when you came down was probably just an ill timed accident on her part, though still unacceptable. Check out someone like Carson James, who is a trainer that goes about things with no nonsense and tons of horse sense. Have someone else ride her and get a video of it. Sometimes seeing things from a different perspective will allow you to get a better picture of the whole situation.
Also keep in mind, this could very well be pain related or even related to ulcers. If your mare is sensitive/high strung, try putting her on a magnesium supplement and have her checked for ulcers. They are much more common than people realize and can change the personality of your horse.
I know a lot of people say mares will be mares, but I'm telling you now, being a mare has nothing to do with being a nut! I prefer mares since they are a bit more interesting to ride than geldings and I've started almost every mare I've ever owned. That being said, I would NOT tolerate a horse that has kicked more than once or given me a concussion more than once. As a yearling, I would understand unpredictable behavior and attitude, but anything beyond that is not acceptable. If that kick had landed on your head, helmet or not, you could have been killed. Is she truly worth that? I can assure she isn't.Specializing in W8, W3 & Kit M Cream & Pearl draft horses.
ID# 170 -
I can't say anything about the horse, not having one or having the chance to be around any hardly at all, but I want you to be very careful of yourself at the moment. A liver injury is not something to sneeze at. It is a very important organ in your body and you must get lots of rest and heal up. Listen to what the more experienced riders have said, and take this time while you are unable to ride to follow up on all the advice they have given you.
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I've worked in the field of animal behavior for almost two decades and one of the biggest lessons I've learned is: it's hard to give advice or assess an animal's behavior without seeing it in person. Unfortunately, in this venue, we can only speculate and guess about the intentions and risk-level of your mare's behavior. From past experience, I'm reluctant to do that because it can be dangerous. Misinterpreting a fear response as a space-control response could prompt a training program that could result in you getting hurt again. For this reason, I would also advise against just using training videos off of the internet. This is not something you want to trial-and-error different techniques and videos until you get the right one.
Without observing the behavior, I can't say whether or not you should get rid of your mare. I don't believe that animals perform behaviors to "be mean." Usually, there's another functional motivation for the behavior. But, that being said, it sounds like she's settled into a pattern of behavior that's dangerous and will, likely, persist. If it has repeated in the past, it will repeat in the future. I do not recommend just going home and getting on her, again, without doing something to address the problem. You will likely get hurt, again.
Getting rid of her is not a wrong decision. However, you should be prepared for how challenging finding her a new home may turn out to be. Not only is it illegal to withhold information about an animal's dangerous behavior, I believe it's immoral. I would hate to hear that an unsuspecting person got on an animal and got seriously hurt because of their lack of knowledge. As Windward Farm said, if you do rehome her, you need to disclose the behavior to the new home. I would make sure that's in writing in the sales contract. And, it may be difficult to find a home that has the knowledge and ability to handle her safely.
If you want to keep the horse, I highly recommend finding a reputable trainer or behaviorist to give an assessment of the mare's behavior. And, I recommend doing this before you try to ride her, again. This is the only way you can make sure what training/behavior work your mare requires and whether it's really something you can or want to commit to. I'd recommend asking your vet for recommendations. I do believe most behaviors can be improved with proper training, management and technique. The question is whether it will improve well enough to meet your needs and whether you will want or be able (given time, space and/or financial constraints) to implement the necessary changes to make those improvements. -
Very well said @Waldgraf!
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Oh no!! I have had something similar with my mare!! She kicks, bites, runs you over you name it!! But, just before a lesson with my bestie and her pony, she had an argument with another horse poking its head out of the stable just as I was picking her BACK hoof out! All I heard was a squeal, a loud thud and a crack! MY OWN PONY WHO I HAVE HAD FOR OVER A YEAR KICKED ME IN THE JAW!!! I couldn't believe it, I chipped my left canine tooth and was told to be out of all sports (let alone horse riding) for 6 weeks. But then the unimaginable happened! I came back the following week for a CT scan to determine how serious the break accually was, it was worse than they thought. A lot worse! I was then out of the saddle for 12 weeks!!!!! It still cracks a year on and I am planning on competing regularly on that very pony. Don't sell her, no matter how much a horse injurs you, nothing will ever hurt more than selling it! Lucy Ella x
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I didn't read all the comments, so sorry if I repeat something that someone else has said! I had a little appaloosa mare that I had had for a while, and I absolutely loved her! But about a year after I had bought her, she started crow hopping when I rode her. The crow hopping turned into bucking though, and she threw me a few times. I never had to go to the hospital though. I was younger then (11 or 12), so I had no idea what to do. We took her to a trainer, and after a month, she was fixed! No more bucking or anything, and she was perfect! As soon as we took her home again, she would be back to normal and buck again. It took me a while to realize it, but when we took her home, I was too nice on her. I wouldn't correct her mistakes and I'd let her get away with things. As soon as show season started up, she'd get chiropractor work and dentist work done, and I'd be riding her 5-6 times a week, and she would never buck or anything! But as soon as show season ended, and I was only riding like 1-2 times a week, she'd be back to bucking.
I don't know what you do with your horse, but what I found to work is don't be afraid to be mean every once in a while, you have to correct their mistakes, or they'll know they can get away with things and try to do it again. But also reward them for good things, so they know when they're being good.
And this might sound weird, but if you haven't, try to get your horse's teeth checked by a dentist! My horse's dentist tells stories about horses that act totally different after getting their teeth done, because they were in so much pain before! One last thing, if you don't regularly ride, you might want to try to. Or even lunge if you don't have time to ride. With Sally, I tried to keep her as active as possible, and that seemed to improve her mood and it helped with her bucking.
Well, sorry for the long comment, hope you get better soon! And I hope everything works out with you and your horse! -
I used to have a mare that was sweet as can be on the ground, but if you had intentions of riding, shed try to kill you. I got rid of her asap. My current mare (had her since she was born, 10 years ago) shes never even tried to kick or bite or buck no matter what stupid stuff I do. I know I've put ill fitting saddles on her, she has her wolf teeth and ive used a bit, everything bad I could do, I've done it. The most shes ever done to me is give me a look like "Really, mom?" Horses that injure people repeatedly are usually not worth it. If you feel like you really want to fix it, do groundwork until you cant do it anymore. It could be an underlying health issue that the vet didnt think of or it could be a mental issue. There was a horse at the barn I board at that had a mare that would buck people off viciously. Some days she was fine and then sometimes, she was a nightmare. She spent tons of money just to find out that she has spinal issues and can never be ridden again. But of course, that particular mare is also just a nightmare to everyone. Shes on heavy pain meds and will still attack anyone. She actually killed a 4 year old gelding and severely injured another mare.
I kind of got off on a tangent there, but tl;dr: could be a health issue, spend money to find out if you can afford it. Otherwise, she is a pasture pet in my opinion. -
I have to agree with Ammit on this and most of the other people commenting. You need to do one of two things:
1. Sell her to someone who is aware and able to fix her
or
2. Get people to help you look at her and find the issue before you even think about getting back on that horse.
Like other people said we were not there and it makes it very hard to make assumptions without seeing the behavior.
I was in the position at one time where we bought a horse, Thoroughbred/Quarter horse, who had multiple times put its owner in the hospital and the owner didn't let us know. This particular horse was down right nasty. She never did this kind of behavior when we went to visit her before buying her because the owner made sure she was tired out by doing round pen work by the time we got there. She not only would buck you off but then attempt to stomp you into the ground. It got to the point were only the men in our family were allowed to ride her. She was also a terror to catch. it took all of us and all of us was like 10+ people but we did it on a regular basis because we thought she would get better if we did. I remember one time she was actually doing really well with my dad riding her. You had to keep her reins very tight other wise she would bite you or grab the bit and just take you for a spin. She was a sneaky pretty thing. She was behaving and she tugged on the reins asking to have her head because she was doing so well dad thought it was a good idea and he let her have her head and she started to go into a nice trot. About 4 strides in she grabbed the bit pulled her head fully out and took off bucking like a wild bronco the whole way. My dad finally went flying over her head and landed flat on his back. She was coming right back down at his head so he started rolling. He got lucky as all of us were screaming and running toward him she just happen to step on her own rein so when she went to rear again she yanked her own head back down. It startled her and she stood quiet as a door mouse.
Moral to the story: Some horses are just nasty
We did end up selling her with full disclosure to someone who was willing and able to try and fix her. Ammit is right. There are so many really good horses who you can slid off the backside and they never move. Your young, and your health is at risk because of this horse. Sometimes when you love something so hard you really need to stop and think about what is really the best for them. Sometimes its sad and hard but your mom might be right. If your not willing to do that you really have to get help from the vet and other people to make sure your safe the next time you get on her. -
Doesn't mean people can't still comment. Lol
Thanks for all the discussion guys. :)
Almost healed, working with her. We shall see..Breeder of Quality Warmbloods and Show Horses
Lover of Brindles, Blacks, Buckskins, Blue Roan's, Bays, Grey's and SABLES! And addicted to Ice, Pearl and the color Purple.. :P
#28600 -
Yay! Good luck!