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Kinetic · Mar 4, 2017 7:37 PM

So now that we have the new testing (yay!) and I can paper all my mares, I have found that all of my 1st gen mares that pass Strict Breeding Advice are Red papered. According to what I've read about breeding even paper levels, that means I should only breed them to B papered studs if I want intact foals.

So far the only B papered ones I have are a handful of RS stallions - even most of my other RS stallions and all of my PF stallions are C papered. I had been breeding with my RS studs anyway before the updates to testing due to them just being my best stallions, but now I'm a little worried about diversity in my gene pool. (I'm still pretty new so I haven't had a lot of breeding seasons under my belt yet anyway, but I'm already thinking for the future.) Are there any 1st gen studs that are B papered besides certain Rank Specials?

If I understand how things work now, foals would be more likely to fail Strict Breeding Advice if the parents' paper levels are uneven, like breeding a C stud to a Red mare. So I'm guessing I should just geld all of my C papered studs, even the PFs and TNPs, because I wouldn't be able to breed them to the Red papered mares (which are the only ones passing testing) and have intact foals anyway - right?

Edit to add:
Ok, I was just browsing the FB group and saw Ammit say this: "The new breeding advice is going to punish mixing exceptionals and regulars even more than before."

So does that mean that breeding my RS studs (who I think are considered Exceptional Producers... they have PT of 10.4 and are B papered) to my Red papered regular 1st gen mares and PF/TNP 1st gen mares will result in more snipped foals or not? Even though B and Red are more even than C and Red? I think I've confused myself even more now...

DragonRun · Mar 5, 2017 5:59 AM

I have been struggling with the same the same questions as Kinetic. I have been trying things in my pastures - just have not been able to reach any conclusions as there are two many variables. My all EP Pasture which was red EP mares to B EP Stallion seemed to work well.

best friend · Mar 5, 2017 6:14 AM

Pure Halloween just bred his pasture. Out of 23 foals only 2 got snipped. The filly papered below her dam and him. Looking at the gelding.

Ritsika · Mar 5, 2017 11:04 AM

@Kinetic, "So does that mean that breeding my RS studs (who I think are considered Exceptional Producers... they have PT of 10.4 and are B papered) to my Red papered regular 1st gen mares and PF/TNP 1st gen mares will result in more snipped foals or not?"

From my understanding, yes. The exceptional producing/exceptionally perfect rank special horses are essentially second generation level whereas perfect foundation and regular creates are simply first generation. With the new breeding advice, the quality of both the sire and dam are being compared to the foal. The foal resulting from an Exceptional x Regular foundation cross would be like breeding a Second gen horse to a foundation thus - most likely - resulting in skewed breeding ability and the foal being snipped. Though it is entirely possible to get intact offspring from such pairings.

Kinetic · Mar 5, 2017 11:48 AM

Ok, so would I have to try to find B papered PF stallions? Because All of my PF studs are C papered, so they wouldn't be even with my Red papered mares either.

Ritsika · Mar 5, 2017 11:58 AM

@Kinetic, I think you can breed the PF/TNP foundations mares with the PF/TNP stallion that papers C.

Ammit posted this on facebook:
"I'm make a full forum post about this later but you can see the results now.
50 perfect foundation mares. Each bred 8 times. I used a Perfect Foundation 100% stud, an ExPer105% stud, a 5% boosted ExPer (110%) and then cloned and 5% again that horse for a 115% stud.
Each mare was bred to each stud both at no pasture bonus and at full 30% bonus.
You can see the results here. Barn names say what the cross was at the intact/altered ratio."
Below is a link to the testing account:
http://hj2.huntandjump.com/pub_member.php?u_id=420

"Does really well at showing the power of the pasture bonus and that a 115% to a 100% CAN get you an intact foal.

All horses received full testing including strict advice. Numbers would be at least double the intact rate for non-strict."

DragonRun · Mar 5, 2017 12:29 PM

I looked at some of the results Ammit got. I did not look at every PF mare she had used, but the ones I did look at, were yellow.
I did use a C PF stallion and bred to 25 red PF (all but 1 with full pasture bonus) and got 20 intact foals, before I culled. I suspect the foundation reds are a low red and match well with the C stallion.
I also bred one pasture of red foundations to a RS B stallion. The results were good, but not quite as many intact. My sample size is so small, it may be meaningless.
Going forward - I plan to take C's and some Gen 1 Bs to foundation reds, Gen 1 Bs to Gen 1 EPs, Gen 2 A's and B's to gen 2 reds, Gen 2 A's to Gen 2 Blues, then A's to Blues, Stars to Golds(not an issue at this point). That is of course unless I learn how to align things better.
This game is tough to learn. There are so many variables. (Thank-you @Ammit for that! It keeps it interesting.)

ConfluenceFarms · Mar 5, 2017 2:44 PM

Lets not forget the poor, neglected Yellow mares! They can be crossed on those C stallions just fine! Especially for someone who doesn't have an upgrade and all the tests, it offers it keeps it doable.
C=Yellow
B=Red
A=Blue
*Star=Gold

Everyone is so focused on the boosted and Rank Special horses, when it it PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE, and 100% OK to start out with a plain ole basic pair of horses! Building a good foundation is what keeps the upper levels strong! Sure it is nice to get your hands on a Perfect Foundation breeding pair, but there is NO reason it cannot be accomplished by starting at the bottom and building a solid base!

Kinetic · Mar 5, 2017 4:08 PM

@ConfluenceFarms My problem is I don't have any Yellow mares - all of the mares that have passed Strict Breeding Advice are Red papered. Even my 1st Gen regular mares (Not PF/RS/TNP/etc) are all Red. That's why I'm trying to find out which type of stallion is actually considered an even match for them.

@Ritsika and @DragonRun, thanks, I'll take a look at the post Ammit made and see if I can make better sense of it.

ConfluenceFarms · Mar 5, 2017 4:24 PM

I'm not saying it just for you, Kinetic....I'm kind of just ranting in general! :P

SandycreekFarm · Mar 5, 2017 5:29 PM

There was a contest once on HaJ1 (I think this was before HaJ2 was even dreamed about). It was also the time when the papering levels for mares and stallions were WAY out of sync. Even foundation stallions were expected to paper *Star to be kept intact.

The challenge was to leave 6 B papered stallions intact and breed them to regular foundation create mares, then carry on the lines until a Blue mare was born. All the foundation stallions and mares were registered for the contest all foals had to be descendants of those originals.

Someone finally reached the goal, even against that handicap.

It was after the contest got started that Ammit decided it was foolish to have three stallion paper levels that were totally useless, and she redid the papering levels to their current approximate similarity.

best friend · Mar 5, 2017 10:21 PM

I am glad that I started with Dancers line. He wasnt a perfect foundation but I am just now seeing his line really take off in the direction I wanted it to. I am the most proud of what I did. I am even more excited to see how his girls will do over the next few seasons.

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