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OndowaStables · Sep 16, 2014 2:53 PM

I really like the look of the new brown gene so I GMT'ed my new TSBD stallion to be AtAt, expecting him to be really dark. Instead he is lighter than he was before I changed him. It was such a surprise I almost thought I had made him AtA+ by mistake, but that is not the case. Is the dun or the silver interacting with the At, or is there something else going on? It isn't a problem for me either way, but I would like to know, so if there is a gene interaction I will know what to breed him to to get the lovely dark brown I was expecting.

http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=138011

PurpleSage · Sep 16, 2014 4:02 PM

From the picture that Ammit posted on the wild bay/brown announcement, it's my impression that silver lightens the effect of the brown genes. I could be wrong though.

Ammit · Sep 16, 2014 4:18 PM

At At horses are lighter then At A horses.

OndowaStables · Sep 16, 2014 4:27 PM

What? I thought that At was recessive to A and that AtAt would be brown (and darker) and AtA would be phenotypically normal bay? His picture didn't change much (except for gaining the natural shine) when I did the first GMT from AA to AtA.
Do you mean A+ (wild bay) should be lighter when homozygous? Am I getting the 2 new genes confused somehow?

Ammit · Sep 16, 2014 4:53 PM

At is a weak bay. If you have two copies you make it stronger. It doesn't make bays darer.

AtA looks the same as AA because A is dominate to At. It totally covers it.

LookingGlass · Sep 16, 2014 5:49 PM

This is a little bit (or a lot) confusing.

I also thought that At was the new brown - the really pretty brown examples that I have seen have all been At. I would have thought that AtAt would be a purer 'brown' (ie: the old brown) even than At/aa is... but this is not the case, now? There's no advantage to breeding homozygous At?

Ammit · Sep 16, 2014 6:32 PM

At is the brown gene. People's mistake is thinking all genes work the same. At isn't the same as sooty. It doesn't work like sooty. It is the total opposite. All bay genes subtract black. At subtracts a tiny bit, A subtracts more and A+ subtracts a ton. At is so weak that some horses with look black. But two copies together makes it stronger.

There is clear and obvious advantages to breeding homozygous At. For starts AtAt StySty horse will always produce brown. Always.

This is how real life works. I can't help it if it isn't intuitive. Nature didn't ask for opinions when she made the genes ;)

LookingGlass · Sep 16, 2014 6:38 PM

... could we get some examples of non-silver AtAts? *cough*

Ammit · Sep 16, 2014 6:39 PM

You are welcome to look through my barn as I assume there is some in there.

Also why are you coughing?

Ammit · Sep 16, 2014 6:40 PM

The horse pictured above is silver (which I stated had some issues being the wrong shade) and dun which lightens the coat on top of everything.

LookingGlass · Sep 16, 2014 6:42 PM

I searched for browns and the only ones I saw were Aa/Ats.

I'm still, admittedly, a little bit confused! It used to be that breeding browns was 'easy' once you got to the homozygous state. But if I understand this correctly once you get to the homozygous state they don't look like the rich, darkly colored browns anymore? This seems like it might defeat the purpose of trying to breed strictly for brown anymore.

Moreso, since it's covered up by the other bay genes, so about the only breeding strategy that would seem to me to work with it would be breeding browns and blacks.

LookingGlass · Sep 16, 2014 6:44 PM

Edit: I did find one t/t horse that you have... but she's back to being called a bay again. *laugh*

http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=138560

Ammit · Sep 16, 2014 6:49 PM

I already altered A- Sty Stys for you guys past what I felt was realistic. I am starting to get frustrated to be honest. Like I said nature didn't ask for opinions. I can't help that the gene doesn't function in a way that is convenient for mass breeding.

LookingGlass · Sep 16, 2014 6:52 PM

Sorry, Ammit! It's just a radical change from what we were all doing before. Not trying to frustrate you, at all, just trying to wrap my head around how it works, and/or how I could make it continue to work with what I was doing before. (Short answer: hahahahno.)

Which means it might be time for a new side project, possibly, is all.

Ammit · Sep 16, 2014 7:02 PM

It is fine if you are just pondering out loud, but I am sort of feeling pressured to "do something about it" atm and there is of course nothing I can do about how a gene works.

Nothing has changed with what you were doing except the word brown became the word bay. That is it. If you want to tackle At though that is it's own ball of wax, equivalent to adding s+ into your heard or a new kind of sabino. It may share the word brown but it isn't related to what you where doing before. It isn't part of the same continuum. It is its own unique gene not beholden to any prior brown breeding programs. Breeding stysty bay horses before does not preclude anyone to breeding At now. I am willing to work with people on what happens with their old lines. That is only fair, but a new gene is a whole new gene. People who bred SSpp light bays are not being given special concern over A+. Because A+ is a brand new unique gene and in no way related to prior light bay breedings. Just like At is in no way related to prior dark bay breedings. New gene, new lines. That is the way it has always been done.

Sorry I just need to get that off my chest.

LookingGlass · Sep 16, 2014 7:12 PM

Oh no! No, I totally get that. I think I (me for sure, probably a few other people) did not at all understand how this new iteration of gene was going to work. Honestly I think that this is the most complex gene we've been given simply because it doesn't function at all like anything we've encountered in the game before. I'm sorry if that sounded like there was something you needed to fix; really it's just a failure of the lights to turn on mentally over here.

The old brown is bay now, I get that. (And I actually really love how the old ones are turning out with some random re-rolls; it's an awesome set of colors. Thank you for humoring me on that!) And the new brown (the brown that gets labeled on the horses) looks amazing. What I thought was going to happen is that At was just recessive and/or just needed to be bred in until it was finally dominant, like I've had to do with my satins, or whatever.

As the original 'oh yeah I'm psyched about this' goal was to get true-breeding really dark browns, I thought that At/At would be the way to go... when clearly it's not, since you want to breed At/At horses to blacks to get the browns again. It's just a teensy bit confusing is all. No harm, no foul. :D (Also confusing is the fact that the homozygous brown-gene horses are called bays again.)

It kind of reminds me of kind of a backwards pearl, almost...

Ammit · Sep 16, 2014 7:18 PM

Only AtAt horses with no sooty at all are called bays. AtAt horses with any amount of sooty are brown, you can have true breeding browns with At.

Both sooty AND At contribute to the brown color. It is polygenomic.

LookingGlass · Sep 16, 2014 7:21 PM

Is it? I must not have realized that, since I could only find the one example. (Who is a neat color too, by the way. Just not what I was expecting.) Actually I seem to remember you saying they needed sooty to be called brown. I guess I will just have to be patient and wait until these new things get added to the university.

OndowaStables · Sep 16, 2014 7:24 PM

I am not complaining or asking for changes either. I was initially surprised by the way my horse came out and a little confused, but I'm not complaining. It will take us all a while to figure these new genes out.

In fact I'm off to my HJ1 account where I can afford a major create spree in search of both At and a+.

Ammit · Sep 16, 2014 7:28 PM

No one was really complaining but members being frustrated makes me frustrated. I just think there was some incorrect expectations is all.

LookingGlass · Sep 16, 2014 7:51 PM

Oooooooo that mare looks really pretty now. Hm!

Ammit · Sep 17, 2014 3:42 AM

Ya you posted the link while I was still editing her.

Here is one with no sooty showing the bay version. http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=142016

kintara · Sep 17, 2014 1:24 PM

I understand the whole At thing, I'm just really looking forward to seeing what it looks like with silver when you've finished!!

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