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In this Discussion
- Cheers September 2016
- ColorGoodStables September 2016
- ConfluenceFarms September 2016
- CrunchyFarmMama September 2016
- OndowaStables September 2016
- SandycreekFarm September 2016
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Lots of DP questions!
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I'm interested in learning more about DP. I've read all the other threads about it, but still don't feel like I fully understand it. You cannot test for DP, correct? Then how can you know for sure if a horse has it? Do all liver horses have it? How rare is it? How likely/unlikely would it be to get DP from the dark chestnut or flaxen dark chestnut herd helper?
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(Another member will step in for a better explanation) not all liver horses have DP. The super dark livers and the black liver horses usually have 1 to 2 copies (2 being the black liver)
The only solid way to know you have a horse with DP is to get a "freaky friday" herd helper, which comes out every Friday the 13th. All horses are homozygous for DP. I'd you breed to freaky Fridays together you will get a colt that is also homozygous for it. If you breed a freaky Friday with a regular horse the foal has a chance of getting 1 copy and a smaller chance of getting 2 copies.
For example:
My freaky Friday mare Vi is hm for DP
She has 3 foals. One is an uneven bred mare
Photogragh
She is a not DP. Her sire doesn't have it and her foal doesn't have any signs of having it either.
Shiz Niz is a liver red roan roan and he has 2 copies of sooty and 1 copy of DP. His sire was a foundation like his mum but not a DP carrier
Her last colt is Bizarre, he is a very dark silver brown. He carries 2 copies of sooty as well as 2 copies of DP. His sire is a freaky Friday stallion
I am not an expert on DP, so I can only make a generalized guess at what Vi's babies actually carry (except Bizarre, I know he is hm for sooty and DP)----
Barn ID 4953 -
Like Color said, the only SURE way to know if a horse has DP DP is to get a Freaky Friday horse, or buy DP in the gene mod lab. After that you have to make your best guess about the offspring of that horse, and keep track of what did get, or MIGHT have gotten passed along.
Dark chestnuts (what we called sorrel back in the day) may have 1 or 2 sooty genes (you can test for sooty).
Black chestnuts have to have 2 sooty genes, AND 2 DP genes.
Livers need to have 3 out of the 4. If you get a liver from 2 dark chestnuts you know ONE of them has DP, but not WHICH one! If a stallion regularly makes liver with lighter mares, you could guess that he MIGHT have DP.
KP, and GP, work in a similar fashion. Really, it's like a logic game. Start with a definite and make educated guesses from that point on!
Lets hear it for the NINJA GENES!
Fair warning: I can't proofread this post, so if there are errors, someone feel free to correct me! -
Sorry y'all, but Confluence and Color Good are wrong. Every horse that qualifies for the Liver club carries at least one copy of DP. This means that as long as you are breeding chestnuts, palominos of red duns, it's really easy to know whether or not your horse carries DP,
Life gets more complicated if you are breeding other colors like champagne, bay, brown or double dilutes. Then you really have to have "an eye" for it or you have to be lucky to get the right combination of genes to get a red foal that qualifies for the liver club.
All horses that qualify for the Liver club have at least 3 darkening alleles across the 2 darkening genes (4 alleles total). The genes are sooty and DP, so when you color test you will be able to see your sooty genes but have to guess about your DP.
"Normal" Liver is 3 darkening alleles, while "black" chestnut is 4. I find it a little harder to identify 4 darkening alleles in palominos and red duns, but comparing them to horses where you know exactly what they carry can be helpful.
Freaky Fridays are all known to have 4 darkening alleles, and the other RS with known DP is the Kings Ransom. Obviously as Amber or sable champagnes, they don't qualify for the club, but it's there,
I personally find that if I get one of the dark chestnut or sooty palomino HHs and use all of the creates, there are often one or two DPs. Of course, it seems like those are usually the ones that get snipped....
DP is also in the GMT lab permanently now, so you always have that avenue to create foundation stock with known DP if you want to use it. I have 3 foundation red stallions with 4 darkening alleles and two foundation bay/browns that also carry DP, so I have a lot of it in my herd.
Thanked by 1MoonAcre Stables -
"Normal" Liver is 3 darkening alleles, while "black" chestnut is 4. I find it a little harder to identify 4 darkening alleles in palominos and red duns, but comparing them to horses where you know exactly what they carry can be helpful.
If that isn't what I said, it is what I MEANT! :P (I called the alleles genes, though)
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Dena what you said I felt was wrong is that you can't be sure you have DP unless you get a Freaky Friday! I think it's much easier to identify DP than that. Tho certainly the gene vs allele terminology can get tricky...
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Ah, ok...I am only conversant with DP on reds, so I don't pay much attention to the other shades
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There is one other new rank special HH that guarantees DP. The Dark Chocolates are chocolate palominos (SstySsty DP).
Here are some examples to help you see the differences that allow you to spot DP in various red based colors:
Ordinary dark chestnut SstySsty no DP (SstyS with DP would look like this also):
http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=375794
Liver chestnut SstySsty DP:
http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=499207
"Black" liver chestnut SstySsty DPDP:
http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=499220
Dark palomino SstySsty no DP:
http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=488779
Chocolate palomino SstySsty DP:
http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=480433
Homozygous DP Chocolate palomino:
http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=480438
Dark red dun roan SsytSsty no DP:
http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=396731
Liver red dun roan SstySsty DP:
http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=440108
Homozygous DP liver red dun roan:
http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=440258
Gold champagne roan SstySsty no DP:
http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=410670
Gold champagne roan SstySsty DP:
http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=440134
Gold champagne roan Freaky Friday SstySsty DPDP:
http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=434335
I was jllewis on the old forum.
Stable ID 88 -
I completely forgot the Dark Chocolates, Ondowa! Thanks!
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I can't believe I forgot the dark chocolates too! I also remember being told about all horses registered in liver having DP, clearly forgot about that lesson XD----
Barn ID 4953 -
You're just going along, doing your thing, then you try to explain it to somebody and you realize you have just been on cruise control, and not really thinking about what you're doing! It does bring us back down to earth, and make us focus for a bit! So, thanks to CrunchyFarmMomma!
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You probably have heard the statement that the best way to learn something is to teach it to someone else. :DDe gustibus non disputandum. "There's no arguing about tastes."
SandyCreek Farm: ID# 441
also playing H&J1 as SandyCreek Acres: ID# 137592 -
Great info, guys! Thanks! So Kings Ransom rank special carries it too? I had no idea! From what you're saying, I already have three that carry DP, because I have two in the liver breeders club, one of which is a Dark Chocolate, and then the Kings Ransom.