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FallenShadows714 · Mar 6, 2018 8:55 AM

So, I know how to get a liver horse. And I know how to tell the difference between het DP and hom DP. My question is, does the bay gene make a difference in the color on a liver horse? I ask because I look at these three horses listed below, and I can definitely see a difference in the three.

The first is a flaxen Liver Chestnut Sabino. I’m pretty certain she is hom DP. She is het Aa.

1761765 liverchtsab

The second is a Liver Chestnut Tobiano. I’m also pretty certain she is hom DP. She is hom AA and carries w20.

1761766 liverchttoby

The third is another Liver Chestnut Tobiano. I know she is het DP based off the depth of the liver color when compared to the first two horses. She is hom aa and does not carry w20.

1761767 liverchttoby2

Am I comparing the wrong horses when trying to figure this out? Any help is appreciated.

FallenShadows714 · Mar 6, 2018 9:02 AM

Also, if anyone could help explain why the first and third mare have the dappling in their coat and the second one doesn’t, even though none of them show the S+ in their gene, I would appreciate it.

CWScowgirl87 · Mar 6, 2018 9:11 AM

Your first mare is definitely hom DP, and your second and third mares are het DP. Bay does not affect the color of a red based horse. I am not sure about the dapples, don't fully understand them myself yet. :)

FallenShadows714 · Mar 6, 2018 9:16 AM

Thanks! I’m wondering if the dapples is an untestable gene, like snowflake in Appaloosas. Since some show up with them and others don’t.

fj1482 · Mar 6, 2018 9:19 AM

First, your first Tob liver girl is het DP not homo. Here is a homo DP tob

WO2 1543110

On the bay gene making a difference in DP I think it does if I remember right. DP has some strange interactions with some of the bay genes. I don't try and breed specifically for any of them but I know some players do. Hopefully they can post some of the interactions they have.

One the dapples it is simply by chance. If you reroll your mare without dapples you might get them. Sty and S+ both have their own type of dapples. If a horse has dapples you can tell which sooty gene they have by looking at them.

S+ dapples

1650403

Sty dapples

WO3 932215

Sty and S+ dapples

1786046show

I hope this helps.

Bourbon · Mar 6, 2018 9:23 AM

Ammit confirmed a while ago that dapples are genetic :)

FallenShadows714 · Mar 6, 2018 9:23 AM

Thanks @fj1482 I assumed hom DP since she looked darker to me, but maybe it is a bay gene interaction then.
I love the dapples and am going to try to breed the S+ in when I find some reasonably priced.

Bourbon · Mar 6, 2018 9:30 AM

The agouti gene does bugger all when it comes to liver and black liver chestnuts. Here's one of my black livers who is hom DP and is hom agouti;

V Hotel Hotel

Black liver with hom agouti, hom dp, flaxen and pangare.

IV Troubled

And finally my breeding stallion who is a black liver. Het agouti, het brown, hom dp, no pangare, het flaxen (recessive).

II Court Fine

S+ is a bit of a tough gene to get hold of if you're breeding evenly since it's expensive to pop on a horse. You might find some higher generations with it though that don't cost an arm and a leg.

FallenShadows714 · Mar 6, 2018 9:38 AM

Wow, those are some dark livers! So looks like the agouti is playing with the color on those Tobianos of mine. Thanks everyone for all the help!

fj1482 · Mar 6, 2018 9:41 AM

I know DP does some really wild things on Bay horses even more so then chestnut. Some Bay horses turn a really funky red when they have DP. I can't remember for the life of me what kind of bay though.

FallenShadows714 · Mar 6, 2018 9:43 AM

Those wild blood bays always throw me off, it’s just such an odd color. But they are pretty.

Ammit · Mar 6, 2018 9:55 AM

Ammit confirmed a while ago that dapples are genetic

So is height and ability though

FallenShadows714 · Mar 6, 2018 10:03 AM

So this guy could throw more offspring with the dapples, since they are genetic?

WO2 Bhut Jolokia

fj1482 · Mar 6, 2018 10:11 AM

Yes, he can and if the foal doesn't have dapples just reroll it and you will get them. I purposely reroll any of my breeders until they have dapples. Most of my foals are born with them. If they are not I reroll until they get them and sometimes when you add tack they might loose them, again I just reroll until I get them back. Because I breed for them I normally don't have to reroll to many times before I get the dapples.

FallenShadows714 · Mar 6, 2018 10:12 AM

That’s great, thanks for all the help :)

fj1482 · Mar 6, 2018 10:31 AM

No problem. Always willing to help out and answer anything I can. Especially if it's with one of my babies. I hope he gives you some awesome foals :)

Ammit · Mar 6, 2018 10:31 AM

Being a liver with dapples does not increase you odd of siring foals with dapples.

FallenShadows714 · Mar 6, 2018 10:36 AM

So what increases the chance without having S+? Or what causes it?

fj1482 · Mar 6, 2018 10:36 AM

No, I didn't mean to sound like that was what I was saying. I didn't even know dapples were hereditary. I simple reroll until I get them. Some of my horses even after many rerolls don't have them. The fact most of my foals have them I figured is just chance. Those born without them I can normally reroll once or twice and get them. I just prefer the look of them to the solid color :)

fj1482 · Mar 6, 2018 10:40 AM

The dapples are connected to the sooty genes. If your horse has two sooty genes more then likely they will have dapples and if not can get them if you reroll them. The horses I have that don't have dapples also have other genes playing on them like Tob, KitM, splash, and appaloosa. I don't know for sure if those effect dapples but in my experience the appaloosa liver is pretty much impossible to get dapples on.

CWScowgirl87 · Mar 6, 2018 10:44 AM

Just to clarify, DP does interact with bay on its own and it interacts with red based horses like your livers on its own. However, bay itself does not do anything to the color of livers because they are red based. (ee) To my knowledge, anyways.

fj1482 · Mar 6, 2018 10:52 AM

Maybe it's a different gene I'm thinking about. It very well could be. I know there is a gene on Bay horses that has some really weird interaction. I know Cheers would know. Maybe tonight she will get on and see this and be able to clarify for me.

ChilliFireFarm · Mar 6, 2018 11:09 AM

The A, At etc does not seem to have an effect on them but have you noticed the subtle lightening of the P (Pangere). I love livers :X

CFF 2GDP 57

CFF 2GDP1250898

ChilliFireFarm · Mar 6, 2018 11:11 AM

Sorry that 2nd one has a W20 blob on her nose :) This one is better:-

CFF 2GDP1262184
The top has pp and the second 2 have Pp

FallenShadows714 · Mar 6, 2018 11:12 AM

Oh I love the pangere lightening. My perfect liver would have pangere, dapples and flaxen.

ChilliFireFarm · Mar 6, 2018 11:16 AM

This is hom DP with pangere:-

CFF 3GDPDPFR1546751

ChilliFireFarm · Mar 6, 2018 11:22 AM

This is probably the closest I have to the flaxen dappled S+, unfortunately she didn't pass BA but she is still very pretty:-

CFF FireMagic

FallenShadows714 · Mar 6, 2018 11:25 AM

She’s gorgeous! I have a chocolate Palomino with S+, I’m probably going to put him in with some of my liver brood girls and hope some get the S+ gene

FallenShadows714 · Mar 6, 2018 11:26 AM

And I picked up this boy I’m going to use at some point, pretty sure he’s hom DP

Dark Cavern

Cheers · Mar 6, 2018 11:55 AM

Answering fj’s question, DP turns sooty wild bays and bright normal bays into blood or red bays.

I will throw up a couple of examples in a minute

DevilsParadise · Mar 6, 2018 11:58 AM

DP LegendoftheFall

Hom DP on regular bay

fj1482 · Mar 6, 2018 11:58 AM

Here is one of my boys who is Pangere, sty dapples and flaxen.

WO3 Bouncin Chili

Cheers · Mar 6, 2018 12:33 PM

So here is a normal bright bay, no sooty.

RAB Tiger Lily

This one is bright bay, probably with homozygous DP hidden.

0218 gg 1734255

Here is the normal chocolate color of dark (Hom Ssty) wild bay

New Year New You w

And here it is with at least one copy of DP

Origin of Chance dJDwR2

ConfluenceFarms · Mar 6, 2018 4:47 PM

Just for fun, here is the S+, S+, DP, DP stallion I made when I first started over here:

The One That I Want 1G C

ObsidianKitsune · Mar 6, 2018 5:01 PM

I have to admit, Buckskin DP with S+ is amazing

3S A Pretty Tempo

ObsidianKitsune · Mar 6, 2018 5:03 PM

Very similar to your boy Confluence, but the light bits on the belly, neck and face seem to be even lighter. The contrast is amazing~

ConfluenceFarms · Mar 6, 2018 5:31 PM

Makes the fact that sooty works from the top down pretty obvious, huh!?

Cheers · Mar 6, 2018 6:17 PM

Even more obvious on browns like the buckskin! It’s like extreme pangare almost....

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