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Low PT, Great Producers
  • I've seen on here that multiple people have had very low-scoring mares that they kept because they produced a lot of foals that stayed intact. I'm wondering why that would be worth it if the foals got low scores, except I saw that some foals got high PT scores. But from what I know of the breeding coding, that shouldn't happen. How does this work?
  • Showing ability and breeding ability has absolutely nothing to do with each other.
    image
  • I know, but what's the good of having good breeding ability (which does what, exactly?) if they don't show well?
  • They give foals that show well. Well, they have a good PT anyway. There is no way at all to know if a horse will show well, because it depends on the horses they are up against.
    image
  • This is very much like real-life. The example I am most familiar with is Secretariat. After he was retired to stud, he never produced a son that came anywhere near his ability at racing. But as time went on, it was found that his daughters turned out to be excellent brood mares, although I don't think many of them were particularly notable racers either. In fact, there were a couple of years when he won an award for being one of the best sires of broodmares ever.

    Showing ability and breeding ability are totally separate.
    De gustibus non disputandum. "There's no arguing about tastes."

    SandyCreek Farm: ID# 441
    also playing H&J1 as SandyCreek Acres: ID# 137592
    Thanked by 1Beadingterri
  • That's a really interesting example, SandyCreek. It's cool that Ellie can get so realistic. So what does Breeding Ability actually do?
  • This will not be an "official" explanation. Ammit doesn't give those. It is just how I bring things that I have learned playing the game for several years into some sort of understandable pattern.

    When a foundation horse is created, the background programming assigns it two separate random numbers expressed as a percentage. One is its breeding ability and the other is its showing ability. A perfect foundation has 100% breeding ability and 100% showing ability. Most foundations have hidden percentages that are lower than that. Some much lower.

    It is important to remember that these ability percentages stand for a range of possible results. This is the uncertainty factor that Ammit builds into every aspect of the game that makes it so lifelike. Another player once did an experiment breeding perfect foundations together. The range of the showing ability of their offspring stretched from a Performance Test score of 8.9 to one of 10.4. Breeding ability is harder to assess than showing ability, but the possible range is probably equally wide.

    An increase in the breeding ability percentage means an increase in the Average Foal PT scores and an equivalent increase in the average breeding ability scores of the foals as well. However, because of the range of uncertainty, some foals will be worse than their parents, some will be about equal to their parents, and some will be better than their parents. A stallion that papers B will produce some foals that are only about as good as those of a stallion that papers C, but is has the potential to produce some foals that will be better than anything a C papered stallion could produce. An A papered stallion can produce foals that will be better than anything a B papered stallion could produce, and so forth. Some B papered stallions will be only a bit better than the best C papered stallions, and some will be almost as good as a low A papered stud. Everything is a range of ability, not a hard and fast number.

    In Hunt and Jump 1, which has been in existence for 8 years, some of the most careful breeders have managed to produce foals that have Performance Test scores in the 14.? range! This is the difference in breeding ability between those perfect foundations, which can at best produce a foal with a 10.4 PT, and the very highest ranking *Star stallions in that game.

    I talk about showing ability because it is more finely graduated and more open than the rankings for breeding ability. Breeding ability is broadly defined, takes time to discover, especially for mares, and is much more hidden. And always, always, always, there is no direct connection between those two percentages, showing ability and breeding ability. You cannot tell how good the offspring of two horses will be by checking their own PT scores. You can get an idea by looking at their Average Foal PT scores, though. But that number will give you a more accurate picture the more offspring a horse has. The AFPT of a stallion with 300 foals will be much more accurate than the AFPT of a stallion with 10 foals or less. As for mares, well, they can't produce as many foals in their lifetimes as a stallion can, even with all the help the Advanced Breeding Lab can give.

    I hope this hasn't been altogether too much information. And it's only my guess, anyway. If we knew exactly how everything worked, the game would get boring, and people wouldn't keep on playing it for years and years and years of real life.
    De gustibus non disputandum. "There's no arguing about tastes."

    SandyCreek Farm: ID# 441
    also playing H&J1 as SandyCreek Acres: ID# 137592
  • Thanks, SandyCreek. That's a really detailed answer. I had to read it a few times to be sure I got everything. :P
    Is there any way of finding an AFPT without going through the horse search item by item and tracking in a calculator?
  • If you go to the family page of a mare that has foals, it'll have it listed there. It says 0 if the babies haven't been performance tested, and it only averages the ones that have been.
  • Great, Thanks! I'll remember that. :)
  • Hello, sorry to ask this kind of unrelated question here, but I was reading through this thread and noticed Abbey Road's comment:
    If you go to the family page of a mare that has foals, it'll have it listed there. It says 0 if the babies haven't been performance tested, and it only averages the ones that have been.

    I didn't know about this so I immediately went to check this feature, but I can't seem to find it. I went to the "family" tab of a mare whose all foals have had their PT tested, but there's no mention of the AFPT anywhere. Is this a premium upgrade feature or am I just blind?
    ID #384
  • Hey Orchestra,

    I'm fully upgraded as well, so I may be seeing something you're not, but:

    Mare's family page with her pedigree on it, underneath that it says
    Foals of "mare name"
    # of foals found for "mare name"
    Average Foal PT: #


    This is all before you click to see her list of living foals.
  • I am fairly sure that the AFPT listing on the horses's family page is a Premium Upgrade feature.
    I was jllewis on the old forum.

    Stable ID 88
  • Orchestra,

    I am one of the members that keep my lower PT mares to see how they produce before I yum them.

    My reason for keeping them and breeding them is: I don't breed for PT/Showing Ability or paper statis. I breed for Profit first, and Points second. I have blue papered mares, that do not produce as many Profit and Point earning foals as some of my lower PT mares, that paper yellow. But it is all random, trial and testing, to find the better mares at producing Profit/Point foals. Even though the mares themselves, level off very soon, and have low earned points, and low hbs earnings. The mare can still be a good producer. For me, that is the fun of the game. To try and find those lower PT horses that produce well.

    Here is an example for you:
    Seafoam is my lowest PT mare I have ever had. But, she is an excellent producer of Profit and Points foals. Her AFPT, in case up can't see it, is 9.71. She has nine foals, but two of those are yearlings and not showing yet. So, out of the 7 foals she has showing right now, three of them are showing a Profit, and all of them have earned me Points. That gives me hbs from them showing each week. I have bred her every year, and you can see gaps in the ages of the foals. Those were yummed because they didn't have many Points.
    http://hj2.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=155774
    image

    I hope this helps also, and I don't confuse you......
  • Thank you for the help everyone!
    I'm not seeing the information that you do, Cheers, so the AFPT is a premium feature. Oh well, I can still calculate it manually.
    Thank you for the example, PaintsStables. I keep changing my mind about what colors I want, but I always try to breed for quality and money-makers. I am still very much learning how to accomplish that, so help is always welcome :)
    ID #384
  • It's more lucrative in the long run, I'd say, to get a lot of points for the bonus than get a lot of profit. Anyone else?
  • Rose Flute--I would say that you are right, although for players just starting out, profit can make a difference. The more horses you have, the more points and the showing bonus can negate any losses in the profit column. If all you have is a free account and a handful of horses, it's hard to gather enough points to reach that break-through point where the showing bonus takes over and you don't have to worry about stable income any more.
    De gustibus non disputandum. "There's no arguing about tastes."

    SandyCreek Farm: ID# 441
    also playing H&J1 as SandyCreek Acres: ID# 137592

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