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In this Discussion
- Cheers May 2017
- ColorGoodStables May 2017
- KerredansCorral May 2017
- Waldgraf May 2017
- WindwardFarm May 2017
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Is This A Safe Cross?
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I've been looking through all the various charts and threads about lethal white, especially in regards to this potential cross for next season:
Sire:
HR8 Nightwish
Dam:
FR Kleine Liebe
Worst case scenario seems to be: Splash with Frame and either Kitw20/Kit Sb1 or Kitw20 / W2. Both have minimal / light white.
From what I understand, Splash and Frame should be okay. The Kit crosses should be okay. A search of W20, W2, Frame and Splash returned 5 pages of horses. A search of W20, Sb1, Frame and Splash had no results, though the lethality chart shows Sb1/W20 (green, safe) is a safer cross than W2/W20 (yellow, low risk). So, I'm not sure if all the genes combined make a difference. Is this a safe cross? -
You should be fine. Your stallion can only pass on one of his kit genes, and the mare has only W20, which is ok with either gene, and both of them have low White factors, so should be ok. If either had a high White factor, I would worry a bit more, but with the low White factors things should be safe.
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That's what I was hoping! I'll give it a shot and report back, if it turns out that it wasn't a good idea!
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Personally, I find the complete calculation chart more helpful than the color chart because it gives you some additional information. You can view the full chart if you click on the link to open the full calculation matrix google doc.
http://hj2.huntandjump.com/forum/discussion/13757/new-kit-lethality-and-kit-mutation-load-explained#Item_12
The numbers 1-6 that are listed for each KIT allele represent the 6 possible White Factors for the foal, with 1 being None, 2 is Minimal, 3 is Light, 4 is Medium, 5 is Large, and 6 is Extensive. In order to read the chart, look for where the 2 alleles you are interested in crossing intersect. The intersection will contain 6 boxes, with each box representing a potential white factor for the foal. A green box means that a foal born with that specific white factor and a combination of the 2 KIT mutations you are looking at will be safe. A red box for a certain white factor means that a foal born with the 2 KIT mutations you are looking at and that white factor will die. For example, if you look at where w2 and w10 intersect, you will see that foals born with w2 and w10 that have a white factor of none or minimal will be safe, while the ones that have white factors of light, medium, large, and extensive will all die. You don't need to understand how the number for each specific cell is calculated in order to read the chart, so don't worry if you aren't a numbers person.
If you look at the calculation chart for your specific horses, Sabino and white20 are always safe together, and white20 and white2 are only lethal together if the foal has an Extensive white factor. The fact that your foal could potentially have Splash and Frame does complicate things a bit. This is because although Splash and Frame aren't automatically lethal when combined with w20 and w2, they do increase a horse's white factor. If your foal inherits Splash, Frame, or both, it will have a higher white factor which makes it more likely that your foal could end up with an Extensive white factor. This could give you a dead foal if it has w20, w2, and an extensive white factor. If your foal doesn't have both w20 and w2, it will be safe no matter how large its white factor is. Personally, I would probably go ahead and cross these two horses since the chance of your foal being born with a combination of w20, w2, and an Extensive white factor probably isn't very high. -
Please also remember Ammit has stated that both Splash and Frame contribute to Kit Lethalities due to excessive white mutations. So a borderline cross that manages to also pick up homozygous splash and a copy of frame may not make it.... Appaloosa doesn't affect Kit Lethalities at all.
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Interesting! That helps clarify how the Splash/Frame interact with Kit. The link you posted went back to the old red/green/yellow chart, but I was able to track down the new chart with the different white factors. For others looking at this thread, it's here: http://hj2.huntandjump.com/forum/discussion/13709/lethal-kit-combinations-have-been-drasticly-updated#Item_3.
I understand from the FAQ/gene guide that, in the game, white factor is a simplified version of multiple factors. By the sounds of it, the amount of white factor isn't necessarily inherited like other genes are. Is that correct? You can't assume that two horses with a white factor of none will produce a foal with white factor of none? -
There's a link to open the white factor chart in google docs right under the red/green/yellow chart. The screenshot of the chart in the other thread is identical, but the chart is a bit larger in google docs if you have trouble reading it when it's smaller. The direct link to the google docs chart is https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HKUJgwuzbKilAgePgMfMewYd8kU3BKWbe8OcX5QNy_Q/edit?usp=sharing
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I totally missed that link! Thank you!
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Yes, white factor isn't necessarily inherited, it depends on the amount of white a foal has. I think there's some randomness involved as well.
One of the B papered colts I bred this year has an Extensive white factor and his sire and dam are white factor None and Minimal.
WF Unstoppable 2G
I also bred a different Minimal white factor mare to the same stallion and got a nearly identical B papered colt, except this one has Tobiano instead of Rabicano, and his white factor is only Light, which is much smaller than his half brother.
WF Wind of Change 2G
I would have thought that the second colt that has Tobiano instead of Rabicano would have a much larger white factor but that's not the case. I don't know if Rabicano adds to a horse's white factor. I know Splash and Frame do and Appaloosa doesn't.